Старики не хотят уезжать из зоны конфликта. Можно ли их переубедить?

We are talking about how to persuade parents and relatives to move to a safe place. And whether this should be done. Personal stories of the studio’s guests and of listeners, as well as comments and advice from psychologist Yevheniya Ihrunova.

Mykhailo Kukin: How topical this issue is? Are such situations wide-spread?

Yevheniya Ihrunova: We’ve been working on this issue for two years now. The situation is hard for people who stayed behind, and for relatives who cannot move their parents.        

People who live outside the conflict zone cannot leave their homes easily.

The older we get, the more we are attached to people and things surrounding us. It should be said in addition that we have stress and combat action in our country. People feel as if ground is slipping from under their feet.                    

Sometimes the desire to stay behind is not the agreement with what is happening around but in order to link to something that leaves some ground for a person. We are always scared of starting something new. If stress, habit, age is added to this, the situation becomes very acute.                      

Iryna Romaliyska: How many such old people remained there?

Yevheniya Ihrunova: We don’t have the exact figures. If we lean upon consultations with people, it can be said that very many old people remained there. Many young people who moved were able to settle here. Refugees and other people say that their parents opted to stay there in spite of shots and barrages next to them. Periodically, they come to visit their children. 

Mykhailo Kukin: Our correspondents’ pieces contain such examples, too, recorded near the demarkation line in dangerous localities.

[Package: «Why the people living in Donbas’s ‘gray zone’ do not leave from under barrages?»]

There are cities and towns in Donbas situated not far from the line of fire. Almost 2,000 people live in the settlement of Severny who remain there despite constant danger to their lives.

Volunteers visit there seldom because of constant barrages, elementary boons of civilization are lacking in some places, electricity and water, foodstuffs are delivered rarely. Hromadske Radio’s correspondent, Dmytro Palchenko, was finding out why these people do not leave the so-called «gray zone».

People continue to live in the front-line settlement of Severny (Artemovo) one kilometer from Horlivka. These are mainly pensioners who have nowhere to go. Before the war, 7,000 residents lived in the settlement. The settlement is known for the so-called «hog paths» used by local residents in order to illegally cross the demarkation line.

The matter is that many of them have relatives who stayed on the trritory not controlled by Ukraine. So people regularly walk these «paths» to go there and back. Our correspondent talked to lpcal women in one of Severny;s courtyards. Pensioners Svitlana and Olha remain here despite danger to their lives.

«Well, how we live. We munch on bread. They give us pension. Those who wanted to go somewhere, they are gone. We have nowhere to go. We hear how they shoot, and we were bombed.

Don’t you have relatives?

No. So we sit here. Whatever happens, happens. For us just as for everybody else.    

Have many people from your courtyard gone?

Of course many have. There are many empty flats. We are at least content that they give us pension on time.

Here I live on the first floor. Here two families live where we live, And there is just one family on the second floor.

So the house turns out to be half-empty?

Yes. Here in one house 4 families live. However, these families consist of one person each,

And how many people used to live there earlier?

15 flats, four remaining. And thkis is mainly what is there everywhere. And where the mine is there is debris there. Even bricks were taken away. 

This is because combat is near?       

Yes. The mine is there. They sit on the eighth, on Pivdenna mine.

Do they now shoot at peaceful residential areas?

Well, they have not been firing for some months. Calm. We hear this somewhere far. sometimes we also see how these red balls fly. We’re curious, we come outside. When I stand on the balcony, this can be seen. Especially Pivdenna. There’s this noise… There’s that side, and it can be heard well.

You are not leaving? And you don’t plan to leave?

Nowhere to go. I would leave. But where to go? We have nowhere to go. Only the cellar. There are both beds and chairs in the cellar. Just in case.              

You put them there?

Long time ago. As soon as they attacked Dzerzhinsk we had put it there. And there are old women who sit under the stairs. They don’t haver a cellar. Here’s the stairs. We are going nowhere. We, the disabled, are sitting here.       

What is the psychological reason for these people to stay and live in a place dangerous for their lives was told by Olha Holikova, a psychologist who works with IDPs:                      

‘Everybody may have differnt reasons but very often this is the attachment to a place. First, this is roots. A person who never went anywhere, it is very difficult for them to change their places lof residence and make some changes in their life. 

‘Second, this is the difficulty of adapting at the new place. People do not imagine and see themselves in a new place. And this is not being sure that they will be able to settle down, to live somehow. To survive in new circumstances. For some, there’s no money, even if this is trite. In order to move somewhere there should be money. And there is another psychological reason: fear. Not being ready to take a step to the unknown. Fear, mistrust in the world. Mistrust in Humankind,’ the psychologist thinks.»

Iryna Romaliyska: I have not heard fear in these voices. What does this mean where psychological situation is concerned?

Yevheniya Ihrunova: I want to express admiration to people who hold it like this there. Their voices stem from they having adapted there. The problem needs to be broken down into parts. There is a social-and-political problem: we all understand it. Our citizens are not protected not only in the ATO zone but all over Ukraine.

But we will take up psychology: the side of people who staed there and of those who are here. They all are in a stress. We are constantly reacting to a changing situation, adapting to it.                      

Stress is a norm. When it is strong and lasts very long it is distress. This is not normal. Pewople are in constant tension there.     

You switch off and no longer see yourself in te combat zone.

Iryna Romaliyska: What does this mean in practice?

Yevheniya Ihrunova: I talked to witnesses from Luhansk. They said that «you sit, crack sunflower seeds, drink beer and make guesses where to it will fly». You switch off and no longer see yourself in the combat zone.              

Mykhailo Kukin: We had a war correspondent here who described such a situation in Avdiyivka. But this is not normal. What has to be done in such situations?                       

Yevheniya Ihrunova: Illusions and phantasies can protect us not for long. Exhaustion will come. In the first turn, a person who remains to live in a conflict zone has to define an objective degree of risk for themselves.

Also, the state must take care abot citizens. If there were somewhere to go, these people would go. Maybe they would dare to do this.

The psychological aspect has influence here, too: so that an outside object or situation be responsible for what happens to us. But it is us who are responsible for ourselves and for our lives. Some refugees who live in Kiev and in Kiev Region, have lived at the government’s expense for two years, and still thy continue to hate it. Some, however, started to work and acquire property.       

Stress also has a second form: resources. There’s always a way out of any impass situation.

What we think of ourselves does not always match what we are capable of in a critical situation. The people who decided to leave can confirm this. First, they found thmselves in a new situation under stress but then they created a business and started a new life. Because of a tragedy, their lives changed for the better.

Mykhailo Kukin: We have a Kiev journalist who hails from Luhansk Region in our studio. Her granny stayed in Luansk Region, on the non-controlled territory. Was this your decision or hers?

Yaroslava Lytvyn: This is a joint decision. I respect my granny’s decision. When our village became te non-controlled territory my granny was 78. She is 79 now. She tinks in a critical way and understands everything. We understand that nobody from our family wants to live in the occupied territory. Some leave stage by stage, some leave impromtu.

But her state of health had not allowed to take the granny away impromptu. We wanted to take her away in quiter conditions. But she said: «Are you laughing at me? Where would I go?» But I decided that I would look for a village near Kiev to take her there. Mom, at tis time, was looking for people who would transport her and. simultaneously, for people who would live in our house.               

Mykhailo Kukin: She had not agreed though?

Yaroslava Lytvyn: She herself found the people who will live in her house. Mom came there in spring to take her away. All the stuff was in boxes but she had not changed her mind. She said she wanted to feel herself the mistress of the house. Sometimes I feel myself guilty. Maybe I had to be more persistent. But this is her decision and I cannot do something to make her worse off.

Mykhailo Kukin: We will discuss this with the psychologist. But we also have a phone call. A resettler from Luhansk, Olena Cherenkova, lives in Lutsk now. She also took her mother there. Tell us how did you manage to do this?                        

Olena Cherenkova: I was born and raised in Luhansk and I worked as a radio journalist. My Momand my teenage daughter also lived in Luhansk. We lived next to the Regional State Administration. When an explosion happened in the beginning of June 2014, this was near our house. My old mother was very scared then I was stunned that my Mom, who is 80, wept and said that she remembered WWII.                                                

Next day I left Luhansk with my mother and my daughter. We left with one suitcase and we knew for sure that we will come back in a month or two. This was almost two years ago. I did not have a dilemma whether to lave Mom there, because it was not possible to leave her.                                                                    

Mykhailo Kukin: Now we will discuss Yaroslava’s and Olena’s stories with a psychologist.

Yevheniya Ihrunova: Immense respect to Yaroslava for the phrase, «I respect my Granny’s choice». We have to respect the right of others to their choice. This can be a conscientious choice, not an illusion. We often feel guilty when we cannot help a relative. However, she could be worse off here as well. Despite absurdity, it can be understood that she feels easier and better there. However, coming back to resources, the responsibility for ourselves lies also with us. And we have no right to decide instead of another person.

Olena’s mom remembered fear and terror that she lived through. This gave her an opportunity to react quickly. She did not want to live through it for the second time.

Mykhailo Kukin: Is there a resource opening stress with people of age?             

Yevheniya Ihrunova: Very often they perceive life as not for themslves but for their children. But they should be told that although the situation causes unpleasant feeling we need you. While you live you are loved, you are near to someone. Think about others seeing sense in you.

If you can relocate somewhere not far but safe, do this. Remember the people who need you. Don’t think that your life is finished. Now, you can do what you had not dared do earlier.                                 

Mykhailo Kukin: We have another phone call. Ruslan Zuyev, a priest, has been evacuating people from Crimea and Donbas for the last two years. Tell us how you manage to persuade them. 

Ruslan Zuyev: In various ways. People have to be told of the reasons: what will happen if they leave or not. Show how dangerous this can be. These people should be given support. Some cannot leave for various reasons.                         

Mykhailo Kukin: Was it possible to persuade more people?

Ruslan Zuyev: Fifty-fifty. There are people who understand that nothing will change, so they leave. People who stay explain this by saying that they won’t be able to settle, that nobody expects them.