A Cabinet Shake-Up in Ukraine, political divide and geopolitical perspectives for Kyiv

Brian Bonner: Good day, everyone. This is Brian Bonner, host of Ukraine Calling. We have a real treat today with one of the outstanding Ukraine correspondents covering the war, Veronika Melkozerova. Welcome to the studio.

Veronika Melkozerova: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Bonner: For those who haven’t read Veronika, please do. She has great insights into covering the war because she’s one of a small but growing number of Ukrainians based here in Kyiv, covering the war. I always go to your stories, Veronika, because you have that extra bit of insight and flair for the offbeat. We worked together for five years or more at the Kyiv Post when I was the chief editor, and I was so glad I spotted your talent in 2015 and hired you. So thanks for coming in.

What will it take for the world to wake up?

Brian Bonner: We have a big week. Of course, in the war, we have the tragedy in Poltava, with 55 dead at the latest count. You’ve covered so many of these tragedies. Every time we think, «This is it, the world is going to wake up to the genocidal war Putin is waging, and we’ll get the aid we need.» But then it fades away and nothing ever really seems to change. Do you think this time could be different?

Veronika Melkozerova: No, I don’t.

Brian Bonner: Because you’ve had the theme before, basically saying that we’re a nation that doesn’t count. Do you still feel that way in terms of the Western response?

Veronika Melkozerova: I don’t want to sound ungrateful because Western nations did what was once considered impossible. They reacted fast and consolidated some aid, but it’s still slow, and not enough arrives when we need it. Western nations support us, but Western politicians have their own strategy for managing our war expectations.

For Ukraine, this is an existential war. For Russia, too—if it loses, its empire may be dismantled. Russia understands that this is a key moment for its existence, as does Ukraine. But the West treats it like just another problem, an eternal conflict to manage, without a long-term strategy. The aid seems to come when Ukraine is on the verge of collapse, not when we need it to win.

Brian Bonner: You don’t think this week will change that?

Veronika Melkozerova: I don’t think so.

Brian Bonner: In fact, we could be facing some headwinds. Germany is cutting its budget, and there’s the wild card of the U.S. elections. Does it matter who the president is in America?

Veronika Melkozerova: Yes, it does matter. America has shown, not only to Ukraine but to Europe, that it’s hard to count on them. After the last great war in Europe, Americans said, «Disarm, and we’ll protect you.» They were going to be the world’s policeman, but then they got tired.

Brian Bonner: We forgot about the Budapest Memorandum and the commitments.

Veronika Melkozerova: It’s not only about the Budapest Memorandum, because it wasn’t a strong document. Let’s be honest here.

Brian Bonner: And yet that was what Ukraine got, which wasn’t much, as it turned out.

Veronika Melkozerova: Just like now with all the security agreements—not much.

Brian Bonner: And you’ve covered it. Okay, let’s hope it changes. They’re meeting in Ramstein as we record this program, and we’re not expecting great revelations. I tend to agree with you. In fact, I spent two days going over your stories for Politico, for the Kyiv Post, for others, because you’ve worked at a lot of places—NBC News, for instance. You’ve covered many of these tragedies, and we don’t see a fundamental change in the West’s response. Today, President Volodymyr Zelensky is in Germany, hopefully pressing the case more successfully.

Changes in Ukrainian government

Brian Bonner: That’s one aspect of the big news. The other big news is the shakeup in the Ukrainian government. How many shakeups have we seen in our years as journalists? It seems like the average lifespan of a minister in Ukraine is about a year. There’s a revolving door.

I’m interested in your insights. The coverage ranges from “this is routine, planned,” to “we need new energy” (the Volodymyr Zelensky-friendly version) and, on the other hand, “this is a governing crisis.” We’re talking about removing people like Dmytro Kuleba, the foreign minister and the chief of Ukrenergo, for no reason other than Andriy Yermak wanting to consolidate his power as chief of staff for Zelenskyy. What are you finding out?

Veronika Melkozerova: The second one is closer to the truth. As you said, unfortunately, Zelensky’s party’s victory in 2019 gave him a lot of legal power. He got the majority, so he had the right to appoint whoever he wanted. Martial law gave him even more power during the war. I would say that he’s using this to consolidate and concentrate power in the president’s office, which many say isn’t right. It gives too much power to a small group of people, and it’s not very democratic or aligned with European Union aspirations.

Brian Bonner: We’re in a strange situation where we can’t hold elections for many reasons—Russian propaganda, security concerns, and the fact that 20% of Ukraine’s territory is under Russian control. Ukrainians can’t vote out Zelensky or the parliament. It looks like they’re stuck with them until the end of the war, but those in governance can throw out anyone they want in terms of appointments. There’s bubbling discontent among people who have a different view of how the country should be governed. How do you think that will play out, since there’s really nothing they can do until the end of the war?

Veronika Melkozerova: I talked to one of the top opposition figures, Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, for my story. She told me the opposition wants to come closer to power. They want Zelensky to create a government of national unity, which would allow more non-Zelensky people to cooperate with him. Unfortunately, even though we don’t have elections, we as a democracy, still strive for them. You can see it across the Ukrainian political spectrum—they fight each other, they can’t deal with Zelensky. Zelensky still hates (exPresident Petro) Poroshenko, and Poroshenko’s party feels the same towards Zelensky. There’s no unity like in 2022 when Kyiv was under attack. As soon as the Russians moved away from Kyiv, the Ukrainian political scene returned to its usual state, even without elections.

Brian Bonner: I’m worried that after the war, it’s going to fall apart l. Does it harm the war effort?

Veronika Melkozerova: I think it does, because war isn’t only about the front and the army. It’s more about logistics and the economy, and the stronger economy wins. What we have now is that some managers in power are more loyal than professional. Some are professional and shine, like (Minister of Digital Transformation Mykhailo) Fedorov and former Minister of Strategic Industries Oleksandr Kamyshin. They’re also from Zelensky’s party, so I wouldn’t say all of Zelenskyy’s team is unprofessional. But some people are valued more for their loyalty. I’ve heard from many officials that Dmytro Kuleba, for example, was pushed to file for resignation.

Is Ukraine doing enough to win?

Brian Bonner: Politics is emerging again, or at least re-emerging more publicly. We’ve talked about three positions the West can take: isolationist—»this isn’t our war, forget Ukraine»; the hawkish extreme—»the future of worldwide democracy is at stake, give Ukraine everything»; and the middle ground—»keep Ukraine in the fight but not enough to win, with no real strategy.» Inside Ukraine, do you think we’re doing everything we can as a society to win this war, or is there more we can do?

Veronika Melkozerova: I think Ukrainian society is doing the maximum it can. In the first days of the war, there was more unity—people were making Molotov cocktails, sheltering others, and there were long lines at military offices across Ukraine. But you have to understand that this is a semi-capitalist society that didn’t want war and wasn’t raised in a war culture like the Russians, who were militarized from school.

They had slogans like, “We can do it again,” coming from the legend that it were Russians alone, who won World War II. It’s in their culture. Meanwhile, Ukrainian society has always been about chaotic freedom and democracy. It would be wrong to expect people who’ve been living under such unbearable conditions for a modern person to maintain the same stamina they had in the first year of the war.

Brian Bonner: That’s true. It is exhausting. Ukrainians have a much different society than Russia, thankfully. But given the fact that the enemy is here and never lives up to negotiations, and there’s no one to enforce a peace agreement, Zelensky said at the start of the war that Ukraine needs to become a “big Israel.”

We’re not there yet, though we are becoming more innovative with defense, like with drone technology, and more economically resilient as the war goes on. But a “big Israel” would mean drafting everyone at 18 and focusing on military duty. Straight to the front. Do we need to get there to win this war, and do you think we will?

Veronika Melkozerova: I don’t think we should get there, and I don’t think we will. I’m not a politician or political analyst.

Brian Bonner: But you are a Ukrainian.

Veronika Melkozerova: Yes, I am. And as a Ukrainian, I don’t think Ukraine could manage to continue this war for 50 years on its own. Israel is smaller and has a huge  U.S. backing, even now with what it does in Gaza. That’s why I don’t want us to become a big Israel.

Brian Bonner: Yeah, it’s politically dangerous for any politician from either party in America to not support Israel in the strongest possible way. Unfortunately, that’s not the reality for Ukraine yet.

Veronika Melkozerova: I don’t want to sound like a conspiracist, but I recently had a very interesting meeting with a diplomat from an Asian country who told me that countries like China don’t want this war to end. They know that after the U.S. elections, if Trump wins, the U.S. will shift its focus from Europe to Asia. That’s what’s most dangerous for China.

Geopolitical interests regarding Ukraine

Brian Bonner: Interesting. Well, that’s not conspiracy—it’s geopolitical strategizing. You’ve covered some big international events. One of them was the peace conference in Switzerland, right?

Veronika Melkozerova: Yes, in June.

Brian Bonner: In June. Did you go to the NATO summit?

Veronika Melkozerova: No.

Brian Bonner: Okay. You made some observations. China has interests that definitely don’t align with ours. Just today, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told China to stop supporting Russia in the war. What were some of your big takeaways from that event? It was a huge gathering.

Veronika Melkozerova: I think it wasn’t a peace summit, actually, but more about Ukraine’s desire to build something like another UN, but without Russia. What was interesting is that many countries attended, not necessarily because they support Ukraine. For instance, countries like Saudi Arabia, India, and Brazil sent representatives, but they didn’t sign any documents supporting Ukraine’s peace formula.

They used the platform to speak in front of so many people. And they actually said a lot of interesting things between the lines of their official speeches. For example, Turkey said the war must be over because it’s already spreading beyond Ukraine’s borders and dividing the world into camps. If you support Ukraine, you’re expected to hate Russia and be a fan of the U.S. If you support Russia, you hate America, and since Ukraine is supported by America, you hate Ukraine as well.

This creates a strange phenomenon where former Western colonies support Russia, our colonizer basically, simply because they’re so angry with their own colonizers in the past. Even though those countries have admitted their past wrongs, the sentiment remains. And then you have countries like Russia and China giving you money just for you to have it, to build another stadium or the road in Africa, you kind of feel more attached to Russia. So, at this point, the world is divided: the West and Ukraine are against the Global South, the Middle East, and Russia, because Russia isn’t isolated.

Brian Bonner: Yeah, far from it. But don’t we have to get to that point? I can’t think of a single positive role that Russia plays in the world. Can you?

Veronika Melkozerova: Of course, I can—Russia is an endless source of gas and oil.

Brian Bonner: Well, yes, and that gets us to how they finance their war. Some of that gas and oil goes through our territory, as you’ve pointed out in your stories. We’re in this absurd situation where some countries in the Western camp—Austria, Hungary, and Slovakia—don’t want to let go of Russian energy. Austria is pro-Ukrainian but sort of goes in different ways. It’s absurd, don’t you think?

Veronika Melkozerova: As a journalist, I think we tend to be idealistic. I used to be naive and believe the world is about values. But as this war is going into its fourth year, I think it’s going to continue after the New Year.

Brian Bonner: You don’t see an end?

Veronika Melkozerova: No. Most countries aren’t pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian—they’re pro-themselves. While we’re dying here, and we think that it’s the most important and cruelest thing imaginable, to the world, it’s just another headline. Their focus is on their own so called green energy programs and more defense contracts.

Why didn’t Putin invade earlier?

Brian Bonner: You’ve written eloquently for the Kyiv Post and Politico in opinions, the Atlantic, New York Times and so forth, about human lives. And some nations matter more than others and some lives matter more than others. And you drew all the way back to 2016. You were talking about Syria and Ukraine.

And, of course, you were there at the beginning of the Kyiv Post where you watched this slow-motion disaster that we’re living now. You covered, and I might say in a very exclusive fashion, the construction of the Kerch Bridge and the inevitability that followed. That was that they were going to choke off the Azov Sea and then move on to Black Sea.

You scooped the world on that. I still want that front page back because June 15th, 2018, we had the headline: “Russia takes control of the Azov Sea.” It was the most read story we had in a long time. I didn’t put it on the front page. I had #FreeSentsov on the front page, which could have gone any week. So I should have had that one back. But you had covered this and you saw this all the way through pointing out that the West was just not up to the task.

And maybe we weren’t either. And maybe Russia wasn’t either because they didn’t go all in. Have you analyzed what could have changed or is there no point in going back to prevent 2022?

Veronika Melkozerova: I think there was no point in going back because I recently thought a lot about the past. I remember a very interesting episode when I was in Deutsche Welle in Germany, during an internship in 2015. I saw an anti-nuclear energy protest in Germany.

Nuclear energy was presented as the main evil that would create a second Chornobyl. Only gas from Russia could save Germany and build its strong economy, which it did, mostly because of cheap Russian resources.

And Ukraine never had an opinion of itself as a strong state, unfortunately. I even heard that at the UN when we spoke with the Ukrainian ambassador, (Sergiy) Kislytsa. He told me honestly that Ukrainian diplomacy was more oriented on the principle that you could solve any issue in Washington or Moscow. Others didn’t matter. So we also didn’t finance our propaganda. We let Russia take over the narrative.

Brian Bonner: They even had control of our airwaves until 2021. I mean, not control, but they had three propaganda-spewing TV stations until Zelensky finally got rid of them—Medvedchuk’s channels.

And I remember people arguing against sanctions, saying that this is not how you treat Russia. And, you know, obviously, the U.S. response was weak. It was all kind of a nightmare. When you read history, it’s easy to see how we ended up here. I’m just wondering why Russia didn’t go all the way back then, when we were on our back. You know, Ukraine in 2014, right after the revolution. (Ex-President Viktor) Yanukovych had fled. We didn’t have a defense. Do you think he was afraid, cautious, or just not ready?

Veronika Melkozerova: I think he wasn’t ready. He hadn’t corrupted the Western world to the extent he needed to, like after the construction of Nord Stream, for example. After Crimea, it was a first try. After he took Crimea and got almost no repercussions—got Nord Stream, got (ex-German Chancellor Angela) Merkel visiting him, like the second restart after what he did to Georgia and keeps doing—he understood that he could do more. So he started. But Putin is not a suicidal maniac. He has a lavish life. He has a wife and kids.

Brian Bonner: He wants to stay alive.

Veronika Melkozerova: He wants to stay alive. He doesn’t want nuclear war. He doesn’t want his people to die, or those he considers worthy, not Ukrainians.

Brian Bonner: But Russians are fine to die. He sends a lot of them to death.

Veronika Melkozerova: That’s another topic. Not his people. Some Russians are fine to die.

Brian Bonner: What changed? He thought he could get away with it, basically.

Veronika Melkozerova: Yeah. He saw Trump praising him, how he used the situation to take Crimea.

Brian Bonner: You have an extensive archive of Trump coverage, which is really impressive.

It’s worrying, I’ll say as an American. I think it’s wishful thinking—the line that when Trump gets in, he’ll have this conversion that other politicians have had. But I know Ukrainians have to play bipartisan and definitely don’t want to get involved in that.

As an American, I’ll leave it at that. We had a banner headline: Why Trump Hates Ukraine. And I stand by that one. We can hope for the best. There have been transformations before. If the world realizes what happens if Russia wins, we’re going to be in trouble.

Understanding the Ukrainians

Brian Bonner: Do you get time to ever step away from the day-to-day? You did some great investigations for the Kyiv Post. You were part of Dying for Truth, which looked at violence against journalists in Ukraine. Honest History gave really insightful coverage of Hungarian and Carpathians, and Polish-Ukrainian ties, as well as Donbas in the ’90s.

I think that was our series about Ukraine in the ’90s. If you read that, you can see why we are where we are today. I hope you get time to do some of that, but the news is coming too fast and furious for you, I think.

Another of your opinions—you try to break down the portrayals of Ukrainians as, on one hand, superhuman heroes working 24/7, perfect people, and on the other extreme, as a corrupt cesspool that nobody cares about. Can you go into that? Do you think you’ve made inroads in getting people to understand? Because you’ve written eloquently about when the power goes out in your apartment, you have to walk up and down 14 floors to walk your dog. Do you get much feedback when you say, «Hey, we’re not perfect as a nation, but we’re trying, we need help, and we’ll get there»?

Veronika Melkozerova: I don’t think I’m that important. But when I still had Twitter, I did have a lot of people coming into the comments—lots of bots, too—saying that they understand they’re not perfect. And Ukrainians aren’t perfect. But the fact that Ukraine is under such brutal attack means there’s only one clear thing: you have to help those attacked by a stronger bully. It’s the right thing to do.

I recently checked how World War II started. I saw that the Brits declared war on Germany almost immediately after they invaded Poland, using the pretext that Poles were Nazis, suppressing the rights of German-speaking people. So Germany went to war.

Here, we have a similar situation. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but there’s a Hunger Games movie. It’s dystopian—young adult, where poor districts fight each other to death, while the wealthy in the Capitol live in luxury. They need spectacles and keep the poor districts obedient by forcing them to fight to the death. The winner gets the prize.

It’s like the same situation we have now. Western societies told us, except for some volunteers, that it’s not their war. NATO is a defensive alliance, and they won’t put boots on the ground in Ukraine. So we have a smaller country that has to perform at its best, sending all its people to war and somehow running the economy with no healthy adult population left.

7.5 million Ukrainians currently live abroad; 4 million of them are taxpayers here. We have 10 million pensioners who don’t work and still have to be supported.

As a Ukrainian, you have to stay uncorrupt, work 24/7, go to the army, be patriotic, not criticize Zelensky, and be grateful to the West because they sent you a lot of money. It’s true, but the West sends weapons when it’s time for the West, not you. Imagine if things were different in 2022—if we’d gotten all that we have now when we launched our Kharkiv counteroffensive and took Kherson back. Imagine what morale was like back then, with our most capable fighters still alive, not exhausted or dead in Bakhmut’s meat grinders against the Wagners. The war might already be over, even without the F-16s that take so much time to learn.

Closing remarks

Brian Bonner: Well, we could have trained him by then, but you’re right—the scale of the killing was infinitely smaller between 2014 and 2022. Still horrible. I remember you did an interview, where it’s said that half the soldiers had post-traumatic stress disorder. I can’t imagine what it’s like now. But yes, that’s where we are, and that’s why Ukraine needs help. I hope it always gets help because we owe it to Ukraine. I think the free world does.

You quit X, right? Or Twitter? Or did it quit you because of Elon Musk? You had a following of, how many?

Veronika Melkozerova: 250,000 people.

Brian Bonner: And you walked away from that? I walked away too, but I only had 25,000 in the end.

Veronika Melkozerova: I got so many followers just because it was fashionable back then to follow a Ukrainian, let’s be honest. It’s not that big of a deal.

Brian Bonner: Well, you worked both local and international, but you just didn’t like the pollution or his ideology?

Veronika Melkozerova: It became an issue with moderation. And also because he started giving the blue ticks to people who didn’t earn them through their reputation. Old Twitter used to give them for those who were verified.

Brian Bonner: I paid for mine, and he still took my account away. I never got a good answer. I went through 10 stages of hell, and there’s no customer service there, I can tell you that. But it’s good to be off it. I know it’s a source of information, but it’s like drinking dirty water—you get the water, but you also get the dirt.

You’ve worked for local publications and international ones. You’ve talked about this before. What’s easier? Sometimes local Ukrainian officials don’t want to talk to you because you know the real story, but at the same time, they want your audience, which is much broader than most Ukrainian publications. Which do you like better?

Veronika Melkozerova: Of course, I prefer working for foreign publications because the standards are higher. The Kyiv Post was a revelation for me because of the high standards they had. You had editors fact-checking your work once, twice, even three times. They asked tough questions, sometimes really forging you in fire, just to be sure your story was strong. You take responsibility because your story has an impact.

Before that, in Ukrainian journalism, I worked mostly in Russian-speaking newsrooms that were doing “jinsa”, which is basically masked political propaganda for a certain party, disguised as a story for money. I even had one newsroom where an author, who didn’t exist, would “publish” stories every month, for example, about how good (Viktor) Medvedchuk was. Ukrainian journalism was in very bad shape when I was a young journalist. So, when I came to the Kyiv Post, it was an eye-opening experience.

Brian Bonner: Well, that’s good to hear. I know we could talk for a long time, but maybe this is a good point to leave it. I’m glad you’re at Politico. I wish you strength, and I wish Ukraine strength and support to see this war through to victory. I think the readers are lucky to have you, and I’m one of them, so I know that. Thank you for joining me. We have a busy day, filing stories left and right, so I appreciate your time.