«Mission: to enable people, deprived of their fundamental rights, to help them regain that in long term» — UNHCR in Ukraine

Andriy Kulykov: Hello and welcome to Ukraine Calling, the English-language podcast from Hromadske Radio in Kyiv. I am Andriy Kulykov and today’s interlocutor is Karolina Lindholm Billing. She is the UNHCR Representative in Ukraine. And UNHСR of course stands for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. And this is my first question to you. I was told by some lawyers that officially Ukrainian people who found themselves outside of Ukraine or internally displaced persons cannot be named refugees. Do you agree with that, why?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Thank you very much. That’s a good question. We have been here for almost 30 years. UNHCR started working in Ukraine in 1994 to support the repatriation of Crimean Tatars to the country. And since then we have been here, and we are still here. On your question about what to call Ukrainians who have fled abroad to other countries from this war, we call them refugees, because that’s a recognition of the fact that they have fled war an international armed conflict. They have not fled in search of a better life, or better economic opportunities. They’ve fled to save their lives. And that’s why this label is important because it’s a recognition of the full-scale Invasion and international armed conflict taking place in the country. 

«Refugees not for life»

Andriy Kulykov: Some Ukrainians would be really surprised by what you say because the recognition of war or armed conflict does not very often come into the lexicon of some of the international organizations. But UNHCR has so much experience that I think that you are unwavering in your definition. Or are there still some doubts?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Well, there are sometimes questions, why do you call them refugees when they are only there temporarily, and we want people to come back to Ukraine. They have temporary protection status in the EU countries, where they are. But what we then say is that the fact that you qualified as a refugee doesn’t mean that you’re supposed to be a refugee for life, actually on the contrary. It’s not part of our work to support people to find long-term solutions in order to reduce the time you are a refugee abroad. So already since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine quite a number of Ukrainians who fled abroad and became refugees have returned to areas like Kyivska, Chernigivska, Sumska oblast (regions — editor), and other parts of Ukraine. And we are here today in the country to, among other things, support them to rebuild their homes and their lives in Ukraine.

Andriy Kulykov: I can hear that you have mastered at least some of the Ukrainian language, saying Kyivska, Sumska and so on…

Karolina Lindholm Billing: I try, but unfortunately not as much as I would have liked. 

Ukrainians: «Strength, determination, and resilience»

Andriy Kulykov: Well, many people here are just making their first steps or maybe second steps to move to Ukrainian, and of course, it’s very important to understand the country and the people to master their language. What have you understood additionally about Ukrainians, their needs, aspirations, their qualities since February last year?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: One of the first things I’ve understood is how important home is the connection to your land, to your house, to your community. The majority of people I met, and I meet many because I travel around Ukraine all the time, say that they want to remain in their homes if they can, or return to their homes as soon as they can rather than live in displacement somewhere: renting an apartment or in a collective center, which is a dormitory that’s been turned into an accommodation center. And that longing to be back on your land next to your garden, your home is very important. Another thing I’ve learned is that I’ve seen firsthand the incredible strength, determination, and resilience. I was in Kyiv when Russia started its full-scale invasion on February 24, and then I had to leave Kyiv a couple of days later, and then I would stay in Lviv for about six weeks.

• I returned to Kyiv on the 13th of April. The city was very empty at the time, but day by day, week by week I saw people starting to return, including from refuge abroad. Many of them found their homes severely damaged or destroyed, and I saw how they walked into their own house, looked around, took up the broom, and started to sweep up pieces of glass rubble from the ground and immediately started that process of self-recovery. So that incredible strength and determination and working hard is also something I’ve found in Ukrainians. Plus a good sense of humor. And of course, love for art and culture. 

«People we are here to support are lead actors in their stories»

Andriy Kulykov: Some people would say, listen: you’re talking about abstract things without specific figures and so on and, of course, there will be a place for figures in probably two minutes. But first, another question. You said that Ukrainians are characterized by strength, resilience, persistence, and all this, but I must tell you, that to work with people in distress you and your team need to have at least as much strength and determination as those whom you are working with. What’s the source, is it just the obligation and the habit of many years of work in this field? Is this, let’s say, humanistic ideals, or is this the feasibility of taking care of people in the vulnerable world so that the world becomes less vulnerable?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: For me, the strength comes from the people I work with and for. I saw the strength that they have inspires me and gives me energy to do the work I do and the work UNHCR does. I always think of the people we are here to support. Furthermore, I try not to see them as vulnerable people who need help, I see them as very strong resilient people who need some enabling support in the form of, for example, free legal aid. So they can be helped to recover civil documents, ID documents, passports, birth certificates, death certificates and so on that they have lost or not been able to obtain, because of the war and destruction of their house, for example. Or enabling support in the form of cash assistance. So they can pay for basic items like food, hygiene materials, rent because they’ve been forced to flee from their homes and have to buy everything. Or enabling support by fixing a new roof and windows on their home so they can move back in. It’s not assisting a helpless person. It’s enabling someone who’s actually incredibly strong, and for me this is the UNHCR mission. You know, we have a mandate which is called to provide protection and help people to find solutions, and we are just enablers. We should never be the lead actor in the story. It’s the people we are here to support who are the lead actors, and we are just supporting. 

«This year, supported more than 650,000 with cash assistance»

Andriy Kulykov: You have listed some of the kinds of help that the UNCHCR provides in Ukraine, and now it’s a good place to start to quote figures which is maybe counterproductive on radio, but it will be very telling on the transcript of this interview because we’re going to put it on the net. So, about the scope of your work, please. 

Karolina Lindholm Billing: In 2022, when the full-scale invasion started, we scaled up from a relatively small operation, as we call it, mainly focused before in the East (we had offices in Mariupol, Slovyansk, Severodonetsk), into a big operation. So in 2022, we reached 4.3 million people with services and assistance including cash assistance, non-food items, blankets, mattresses, pillows, hygiene kits, etc. Also, emergency shelter materials and house repairs and what we call protection services which include free legal aid, psychosocial support, and accompanying people with high vulnerabilities to social services. In 2023 so far we have reached almost 2.5 million people with the same services.

• We’re proud to say we have supported about 23,000 families to repair their damaged homes. And these are new roofs, new windows, new doors.
• We are hoping to reach 25,000 before the end of this year. And this year we have also so far supported more than 650,000 individuals with cash assistance, including some more assistance now during the winter months to pay for additional costs of heating and fuel.
• And about 1.2 million people with these protection services.

Andriy Kulykov: And of course, knowing Ukrainians, you may guess that some of them will ask, and what’s the amount of the cash assistance that you provide?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: The amount that we provide per person per month was up to the end of September 2,200 hryvnias per month, and we did this for three months. So 6,600 hryvnias per person. But then from October it was increased to 3,600 hryvnias per month and then three times. 

Andriy Kulykov: Whatever one may say, I will tell you that it is more than my monthly pension. So if I were in this situation I would certainly appreciate this although of course, if we sort of spread it throughout the year then, yes, you are enablers, and sometimes it is very, very important that this enablement or this help comes at the right moment. And it just helps to fix not just the roof or the window, but the way you feel, and provides new opportunities. Maybe this is not the politically correct question, but still, what sort of help do you personally consider the most important? And just don’t tell me: every kind of help is equally important. 

Karolina Lindholm Billing: No, I will say the most important is the kind of help the person you’re trying to help at that moment needs, because one person may need acute psychosocial support, for example, you know, after the horrible missile attack on Hrosa in Kharkivs’ka Oblast. One of the Ukrainian partners we work with is non-profit organization «Proliska». They went there with psychologists on the ground plus material assistance. And of course, people there were in shock, in deep trauma and their psychologists provided this psychological first aid to people who had survived the attack but lost family members or had family members injured, and I think for some that was the most important. But then for someone else, it may be that cash assistance you receive just when you had fled or been evacuated from your home area and without anything but the clothes on your body, and you need some money to buy food or buy medicine. 

• Key: Ask the people what they need

I remember the start of the full-scale invasion when I was in the West of the country and every day the evacuation trains arrived to Lviv and Mukachevo with thousands of displaced people who were looking for somewhere to sleep for the night. For them, maybe that place to sleep was the most important, to be told: here we have a collective center where there is a free bed for you to sleep tonight with a clean mattress that’s not used for 20 years, where you can take a proper shower. So I think what is key for us is to ask people what they need. Obviously, as we are in UNHCR, there are many things not within our capacity to provide but where it matches that’s what we should do.

Andriy Kulykov: Do you ask them directly, or is there some sort of survey service that provides you with the data?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Both. We ask people, but often we work very closely with the local authorities at this settlement or hromada (community — editor). And then we talk to people in communities themselves directly or through local NGO partners. We are asking the partners what people need, but then we also provide information about what we in UNHCR specifically can offer: cash assistance, free legal aid, and psychosocial support. But in our programs, we do not work in the area of health. There are other organizations. So it is also important to be honest about what you can do and what you cannot do.

«Main office in Dnipro, work from there in other areas»

Andriy Kulykov: Over the years that you and the UNHCR were engaged in Ukraine, were there any cases when you thought that this sort of help would be very much in demand, but people will tell you: «No, no, we don’t need this, we need something else,» and then you had to rethink your strategy?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: During the first months of 2022, there were a lot of demands for in-kind assistance: mattresses, blankets, and kitchen sets, for people who were starting up a new life and left all their pots at home. Now most people prefer cash assistance so they can buy what they need because maybe they need one pot, but they don’t need the pan, and they don’t need a mattress, but they need two pillows instead. So it’s more efficient and you buy it from the local market. So in that way, we have adapted our response. This year and looking into next year, we are increasing our cash assistance program and reducing the in-kind distribution program. 

Andriy Kulykov: As far as I remember you said that last year you reached 4.3 million people and this year so far, 2.5 million people. Why is there this difference?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: It’s mainly related to funding because in 2022, when the full-scale invasion started, there was that global outpouring of support from governments providing funding, but also from private individuals and the private sector providing funding. So we had more resources to support more people. I think this has been the same for everyone. 

Andriy Kulykov: And by the way, this is reflected in our domestic situation as well. The war and the situation extract a lot from people and the resources are not the same. But coming back to the budgeting issue, how is the budget formed?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: We deliver our programs within what is called an interagency humanitarian response, which is led by the UN’s humanitarian coordinator, Denise Brown. And then we have many different organizations of the UN, national NGOs, and international NGOs that deliver programs within the context of that response. We have programs in the area of protection, emergency, shelter housing cash, in-kind assistance, and we form our targets and budget within the framework of that big plan and what we see as the most critical needs that we can meaningfully contribute to because we don’t have expertise in all areas. We focus on the areas where we have expertise, and then we continuously advocate with donor governments to mobilize resources. Also, a lot of my work is to advocate for resources to Ukraine overall, not necessarily to UNHCR’s programs. 

• The week before I was in Kryvyi Rih, Vysokopillya, Zaporizhia, Dnipro, and Odesa and heard what people and had the first information about the current situation and first needs of people. I tell the world about what the needs are of people who are suffering because of the war and call for more resources to come to Ukraine’s humanitarian recovery so that people can live dignified lives in the country.

Andriy Kulykov: I am going to ask you where you have been during these almost 22 months. Sometimes it seems that the first day never ends, but you named some of the cities that you’ve been to like Kryvyi Rih, Zaporizhia, Vysokopillya, and others. You also mentioned that the UNHCR had offices in Severodonetsk, Mariupol, and Slovyansk before the full-scale invasion. Do you now have a presence in those areas, not just visits but constant presence as well?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: We now have our presence in Dnipro instead. And then we go from there to these areas and provide support. Also, because the country is so big it’s impossible to have offices everywhere. So Dnipro has become the main office for the Eastern area and the oblast. We also have a small office in Poltava, which we are moving to Kharkiv at the beginning of next year to be closer because in Kharkiv needs are enormous and as you know, they are targeted almost every day by the attack. 

Andriy Kulykov: Yeah, I’ve been to Kharkiv at least four times this year, and recently I also went to Kherson. And you also do not stay away from dangerous places… 

Karolina Lindholm-Billing: No. I have also been to Kherson several times. 

A citizen of the world

Andriy Kulykov: How do you cope with this? You’re an international person. You may stay away while you go there.

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Well, because I care. And I think that I can, and we can contribute to something meaningful for people.

Andriy Kulykov: Are you originally from Sweden?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Yes. 

Andriy Kulykov: I have always thought about some motives that lead people from the countries which luckily did not have any war on their territories for hundreds of years. And you are engaged in dealing with the war aftereffects or the current war every day. It’s not, let’s say, the direct problem of Sweden or Swedes, and it may sort of put you or any other person in the position: «Okay, we are safe. We don’t want to take part in this in order not to bring this on our land». On the other hand, of course, there’s another motivation like «We are okay, but our neighbors on this globe are in very dire straits. So let’s go and help them». What motivates people like you? And you may speak of yourself as well.

Karolina Lindholm Billing: I think it’s a care for the state of our world, our global world. I mean, we can try to think that we can just mind our own business and live our life in our little, you know, corner.

• But for me, I am a citizen of the world, and I feel I have a responsibility to contribute in some way to making it better. For me, I started as a teenager, and I’ve worked for almost 25 years now for UNHCR in different countries. And I think it is the feeling that you can do something meaningful to people.

Some people work in the more humanitarian spheres, some work more in development, and some work on peace building. For me, not again assisting helpless people, but enabling people, that’s what I found meaningful. I’m a lawyer by education, and I get very angry when people are deprived of their fundamental rights. It’s about enabling people to reclaim their rights and their dignity and access to services.

Andriy Kulykov: But of course, the mission of the UNHCR in Ukraine is composed not only of Swedes. I presume there are many different people, and also many foreigners. How do you find the common language between them? Different habits, different backgrounds. Maybe, at least for the beginning, different associations with what is happening. How do you manage this team? 

Karolina Lindholm Billing: There are around 50 nationalities within our team. So most of the international staff come from different countries and then about 80% of our staff are Ukrainians. I think that we come from different countries, cultures, backgrounds, and experiences, but what unites us is this mission to enable people, who have been deprived of their most fundamental rights, uprooted, to help them regain that and to recover from that trauma of war conflict. And build their life again, and look forward to a brighter future.

It’s extremely enriching to work with colleagues from many countries and backgrounds. It’s sometimes easier to work with people who are all from the same background as you because you can find common understanding easily. But then you also miss those perspectives and ideas that come completely from a different perspective that you didn’t have in your mind. That opens up new horizons and I think some of the best moments I’ve had in my years with UNHCR are when I’ve been in a team with colleagues from different continents, countries, and different backgrounds, who have worked together to solve a problem or find a way forward. It’s very rewarding.

The saddest experience: Bilozerka

Andriy Kulykov: Back to your travels or should I call them back to your wandering mission in Ukraine, and you have already mentioned some of the places that you’ve been. What is the brightest or maybe the darkest memory that stands out about the cities or villages that you visited?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: What immediately comes to my mind about your question is when I went to Kherson less than 72 hours after it had been retaken by the Ukrainian forces. And when we drove this road where we could see, you know, mortar sticking out of the tarmac and the clearing teams on the road and so it was a bit scary I have to say. We went there with some assistance together with colleagues from other UN agencies and the humanitarian coordinator. And then when people were coming out from their houses waving to us and I think seeing how happy they were to see people coming into the city and coming back to the city, it was an extremely strong experience, and it felt meaningful because they could see that they had not been forgotten during this time when they had been under the temporary occupation of the Russian forces.

Andriy Kulykov: When you go to such dangerous places, I suppose that you are obliged to wear a bulletproof vest and a helmet. Do you have them made to measure, or were they just given to you and someone said, «And then you can adjust it»?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: We have them in the car and sometimes we have to wear them. When we went to Kherson that day we didn’t have to wear them.

I always prefer not to wear them because it feels awkward for me to wear a bulletproof vest when you know, the woman, the man, and the kids I’m speaking with do not wear this. Again, we are here as equals. But we have them and yes, they are in sizes small, medium, and large, not custom-made. 

But then you want to ask what I can say about the saddest experience. I think it was a moment during my time here in the last 20 months when I visited Bilozerka in Khersonska oblast, one month after the Khakovka dam destruction. It was on the street which had been covered with more than three and a half meters of water flooding from the dam.

And there I met a man Sasha who was now clearing the grounds where his house had stood but which had completely collapsed from the weight of the water. If there was nothing left of it he was there with the help of volunteers. I remember one had come from Chernivtsi to Bilozerka to help people there and they were clearing it because he said, I need to build a new house before the winter.

• And then on the other side of the street and this is even sadder, I met with a woman, Lubov, in her 70s. She was so frail and shaking. So it was hard for her to speak, but she described how her house had been shelled twice, the second time killing her daughter, leaving behind a 19-year-old grandson and a 9-year old granddaughter with disabilities. And then on top of this tragedy, her house had been flooded after the Khakovka bridge went down. And you feel, and we heard of course the shelling ongoing while we were there.

 Enablement goes both ways

Andriy Kulykov: I’m very grateful to you for being so personal and involved in this conversation, same as in your work, but still you are an official representative of an international organization. So maybe there’s something that you just have to say as the official representative. If you want to do this, please do so.

Karolina Lindholm Billing: Well, I think what I want to say is thank you to all the Ukrainians I’ve met during my two and a half years I’ve been in Ukraine. And for welcoming me so warmly and enabling me and my team to contribute to this truly collective response to the war, to Russia’s full-scale Invasion because of the humanitarian needs, recovery needs, and psychosocial support needs that have been triggered. Because of this they are just enormous and no one can address them all, but what I found in Ukraine is truly what I would call a whole society’s response. Volunteers, organizations, authorities, international partners coming together to do what each of us can do. But to be able to contribute to that, you need to be also enabled by the government and the authorities and the people themselves. And I think we have felt enabled here. So I want to say thank you for enabling us to support Ukraine and say that we are committed to continuing the priority to support Ukraine in the years to come.

Andriy Kulykov: Well, the Beatles have once said that the love you make is equal to the love you take, so enablement also goes both ways. And now the question of which I haven’t thought of but when you mentioned for the second time that you came to Ukraine in 2021 I suddenly thought, has she been to Staroshvedske in the Kherson region?

Karolina Lindholm Billing: No, no, I haven’t.

Andriy Kulykov: But you know what this is? Staroshvedske is a village in Ukraine, which still preserves some of the legacy of the Swedes who came there to develop Ukrainian or Swedish-Ukrainian agriculture and who have a very high reputation among local people for being diligent and serious and being able to enable other people as well. 

Karolina Lindholm Billing: So maybe that’s where I need to go as soon as I can. 

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You may also read: Russian invasion of Ukraine: manifestation of collapse of Soviet Union?

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